Machne Menachem

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Posted in Uncategorized by machnemenachem on March 21, 2009

MM to David

B”H
I’m starting to think perhaps I should take you in to help with the site.
You have good questions, I was planing to address many of them even before you even asked them (I was not born yesterday, I know what all the so called “questions’ you may have).
The only question to you is, are you really interested in the truth?

Like I stated many times (on the site) I have ten years worth of stuff.
I will do it all on <strong>MY TIME</strong>, I am not under ant presser.

My goal is not to go after how corrupt the “Rabbonim” were or are,
The so called “Koved Harabonim” people are managing that department very well.
I scents that you are trying to get me to bash them etc..

You can not be the only one asking the questions.
[It’s a two way street, You must answer my questions as well].

Did you ever speak to any of the Original directors?
They can be easily reached, you know their names, you can (easily) find them.
If you need their phone number(s) I can give them to you.

I will remind you, spritzer went to court in MIDDLE of a Din Torah.
I just hope you are  not pretending to be naive, because my dear  friend I’ve been around and I know a thing or two.
So stop the dance and get to your point!

With blessing for peace and justice,
Machne Menachem [end]
———————————————–
David (noneedtoknow) to me:

I understand your point very well…
I am not tying to get you to bash anyone… I myself am not from CH, thou I used to go there often. I haven’t been there for a while now, but nevertheless, I stay “in touch” with the community thru the news sites.
I remember the Machne story from back then… [irrelevant part taken out*]
– i have to be careful here, as you may even be one of them! but from the nature of you’re writing, i don’t think so…
Anyways, if you have all the proof as you say, then why start the website with incomplete information… the way you put it now really makes it look as if spritzer is rightfully there now…

I myself don’t care who owns it. my children went there last year and had a good time. the main thing for me is the koch in Moshiach that’s there now… If I remember correctly, the “real” reason the camp was opened in the first place was that there should be camp the kochs in Moshiach after Gimmel Tammuz… so that’s the reason why I sent my 2 kids there now…
To me it was clear then (and I think still is even now after reading things on your blog) that spritzer is the director…
You need to have solid proof to say otherwise… and even if the camp IS yours, why didn’t you open a camp when the camp WAS by you??? our boys needed a Moshaich camp… and now they finally have one!
Would you open such a Camp? [end]

* I am not going to let propaganda pass throw my site, especially when it was all found to be  leis, just a tactic to get the camp.
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MM to David:

I myself don’t care”

Then I’m waisting my time with you!

It’s  nice to know that in the name of “moshiach” anything goes,
I hope your child came home as healthy as he left.

Correct me if I’m wrong, according to you, Spritzer was aloud to go to court, and no matter what the result (verdict) would be, he wins (always) in the end, because he has a “psak din” (let’s just say for augments sake that the psak says that he has full control and hes the boss etc…%100), Don’t you think that the second he went to court HE gave up on those rights (of the psak), that he gave over the Verdict to the judge to decide (I’m sure he didn’t expect to loss, in fact he did succeed in convincing the judge for 3 years-all that information is on this web-site)?

By the way (and the following will go up on the site), if Spritzer would not have gone to court, he would have had the camp until today (machne menachem). When the “psak” came out, the other directors stepped back, (waiting to continue the Din Torah).

If you really want to know the truth, CALL one of the directors,
I suggest Meir Hershkop.
Home: — — —-
Cell:— — —-
(best to call him after 7pm)

You wont call, it’s easy sitting “somewhere else, out of CH” writing on your computer and coming to conclusions.

G-d Bless,
Good day
MM

P.S. You talk about “moshiach” yet you go ahead with your Hate and Loson Hara.
Gadi and Lelli Hershkop are not part of the camp, (were never called to any Din Torah about the camp etc… you might as well have written the court papers of Mesira for Spritzer -all these claims (of violence etc…) spritzer already made in court, all found to be false and leis). [end]
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David to me:

P.S. You talk about “moshiach” yet you go ahead with your Hate and loson Hara.
           Gadi and Lelli Hershkop are not part of the camp!</blockquote>
that’s true, but everyone knows that they kept on mixing in, doing acts of terror. tell me that I’m wrong….
 
spritzer went to court on SOMETHING ELSE, not on the directorship!!! thats the point your missing.. the psak remains the same!!!
 
to prove that – on Rabbi Segal’s letter to the mosey beis din which you posted on your site, he concludes that the beis dins pask is sill in effect… based on what you wrote – the psak should be botul, and they have to redo the case! [end]
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MM to David:

I myself am not from CH, thou I used to go there often. I haven’t been there for a while now, but nevertheless, I stay “in touch” with the community threw the news site.

I’m Waisting my time with you, like you said yourself “you don’t care”.
(by the way which “news site” talks about this issue?)

You lie, your IP address shows that you live in Brooklyn,

I will however be addressing many of the issues you brought up (Like I stated before, those questions you have were in the plans before you even asked them), except of course the many points of propaganda (i will disregard them).

Another thing, You know (you think you know) to much to be just some guy with just some questions.
[end]
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MM to David:
B”H
1- it’s not right that you are using somebodies else name.
2- I am attaching (just for you), the first submitted papers to court by Spritzer,
and the final Verdict (I have it up on the site but perhaps it’s to clear enough for you to read).
Don’t sell this bout about how this case was not about the camp.

Everything is so clear to you, then why not come to a Din Torah and make these Taynis there, why are you pushing it off for so long (it’s after all so clear).

If the Bais Din does discover that spritzer was indeed stealing money from the camp etc.. you thing they will still let him run (Niyol) the camp?
[thats what I meant when I wrote  “temporary Psak”, it’s really one Din Torah, that Din Torah was supposed to continue after that summer (1996), but spritzer went to court.

I will g-d willing be giving my comments on that “psak” in the near future.

I approved must of your comments (except the propaganda),
I must again thank you for helping me give this site some life,
Please continue is your quest of the truth (just don’t forget to be truthful your self).
I will do my best!

G-d bless!

“The truth is the best lie you can tell”(somebody said that)
[end]
————————————————————–
David to me:

first of all, fancy you calling me a lier, I Do  indeed live in Brooklyn, and I don’t recall denying that (unless you think that CH is the only place in Brooklyn).
 
I have already read thru these pages many times…
 
The Court Mesirah is indeed a mesirah (as an outsider, maybe the spritzer party will argue, but for arguments sake, well call it mesirah).
But the order is not regarding the ownership of the camp!!!
the court is suing the “herskop mafia” (as he calls them) for their vilde actions… what’s that have to do with the nihul of the camp?
you’re right, the beis din was going to judge on the money matters as well… spritzer’s mesirah is on damages etc done to him, not regarding the money of the administration stuff (as you guys wrote in the parshas MM)… thats the way it looks to me!
 
it is not a temporary psak, it;s the first part of the psak, the second diyun was supposed to be on the money, not resulting in a change on the nihul… why are you playing on the psak’s words?
 
you disregarded the proof i brought from the Rav’s letter to Monsey… you see clearly that its two separate dinei torah.. money and nihul…
 
regarding going to the camp now, even if spritzer is totally wrong for going to court… why should that prevent parents (like myself) to send our children to the camp… what’s he have to do with the place anyways… it’s ran by fine and lebedike staff who did an amazing job last year, keep contact with the kids thrughout the year (my kids gets newsletters every month, their counselor calls them every week or so and is their “mashpia” – that’s important for me, as my children don’t have a Chance to get the chassidishe lachluchis there is in CH…) 
 if the bal habyis is corrupt, we must not go there? is there an alternative?[
end]
—————————————–

MM to David:

B”H

It’s a complete waist of time talking to you, I can’t repeat and repeat, especially when I have plenty of work in front of me. (now your going to say its because I have nothing to respond, so be it).
you are not taking the time to read ANYTHING that I wrote, why should I sit and waist my waisting time on you, when i can waist it on more waist full things (like my site).

I write on my site, before every post (if you would take the time to read you would notice)
יראה העם וישפוט
I will let the people read and come to their own conclusion, if it’s as simple as you think it is, then thats what they are going to walk away with (again, a spritzer wins either way). You should be glad this site is up (in fact, you can help spread the word).

I was asked by a friend, what if spritzer also made a site like mine? to this I replied “If he does that, I will put a link on my site to his”.

So my dear friend, start getting to work, don’t expect spritzer to pay you (you probably already know that- your not getting any money).
Perhaps spritzer can take you to help him out in the Din Torah (that hes not showing up to), you seem to think you know so much, it should be a piece of cake, in and out case (especially with all the intelligent arguments you make).

Good luck!
Gut shabbos.
G-d bless.

I will be using some (the relevant parts)  of our e-mail conversations on the site, (nothing we wrote to each other was personal or privet, we were just discussing the camp etc..)

P.S. I am having a fun time and if I really feel like it (when I’m really really bored), I will be breaking (and ripping apart) up every single sentence/statement or so called “facts” of what you wrote (and will continue to write). In time (if I have).

Send regards! [end]
——————————————
David to me:

You can stop answering me if you want, that’s your decision. But if you want to explain the message you have to the world (that you’re the original owner) – I don’t see that from the site…
 
I’m ready to strike a deal – if you can prove me that the camp is indeed not to be under spritzer’s control right now – then I won’t send my kids to camp this year. Again, you have to prove it with solid proof, not just statements like “it’s forged” – that’s a very lame claim – anyone can say that at anytime… spritzer can claim as well that all the piskei dimim you have are also forged…
if you bring SOLID proof, I’ll take my 2 kids to a different camp this year…
 
Again, if you wish not to respond – that’s up to you [end]
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MM to David:

“regarding going to the camp now, even if spritzer is totally wrong for going to court… why should that prevent parents (like myself) to send our children to the camp… what’s he have to do with the place anyways… it’s ran by fine and lebedike staff who did an amazing job last year, keep contact with the kids thrughout the year (my kids gets newsletters every month, their counselor calls them every week or so and is their “mashpia” – that’s important for me, as my children don’t have a Chance to get the chassidishe lachluchis there is in CH…) ”

הלכות גזילה ואבידה פרק חמישי

א. אסור לקנות דבר הגזול מן הגזלן ואסור לסעדו על שינויו כדי שיקנהו שכל העושה דברים אלו וכיוצא בהן מחזק ידי עוברי עבירה ועובר על ולפני עור לא תתן מכשול:

ב. אסור ליהנות בדבר הגזול ואפילו לאחר יאוש והוא שידע בודאי שדבר זה הוא הגזלה עצמה. כיצד ידע בודאי שבהמה זו גזולה אסור לרכוב עליה או לחרוש בה:

ג. גזל בית או שדה אסור לעבור בתוכה או ליכנס בה בחמה מפני החמה ובגשמים מפני הגשמים. ואם דר בתוכה חייב להעלות שכר לבעלים כדין הדר בחצר חבירו שלא מדעתו. גזל דקלים ועשה מהן גשר אסור לעבור עליו וכן כל כיוצא בזה
[end]
——————————————
David to me:

I thought from the fact that you’re quoting Halacha, that you are weel versed in the henrew language…
 
והוא שידע בודאי שדבר זה הוא הגזלה עצמה.
 
The argument is if he was a Moiser or not… where does the camp being stolen come in?
[end]
—————————————-
MM to David:

oh-vay
Hashem Yerachem! [end]
[it’s OK to be a mossier, as long as your not a Ganev]
————————————-
David to me:
so u decided to ignore me… OK, at least that tells me now that I know the complete truth…[end]

you didn’t validate my comments… why? that’s propaganda as well??? common, get real!
————————————-
MM to David:

All the friends and people I spoke to (over Shabbos) about our discussion told me to let it go and not waist my time with you, they said a person who can Admit that spritzer is a mossier (or MAYBE a mossir) and still find excuses, is a waist of time.
A person that can still send a check with his signature to such a institution all in the name of “moshiach” needs to see a doctor.

no proof and evidence will convince you,
and perhaps it’s better that way.

I offered you to call the original directors, and so far you haven’t,
your a fake and phony.

again, You guys will always have this problem (no matter how you try to spin things), and here I find myself repeating once again.
1. The “Psak does not address the original directors of the camp ,as they were not part of the din Torahs.
2. Spritzer went to court, in middle of a din Torah (Your trying to spin that too)
3. Spritzer is not showing up to a din Torah as we speak (it’s already been two years).
4. were ever spritzer went he lost, he lost the din Torah (meaning, he didn’t get ALL that he wanted from the bias din, so he went to Federal court. When he saw that he was losing in Federal court (before it was even over), he ran to bankruptcy court, even in bankruptcy court he did not get what he wants, thats why the camp is not called Machne Menachem etc…

 
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 9:40 AM, david grossbaum  wrote:you didn’t validate my comments… why? that’s propoganda as well??? com’mon, get real!

I posted your comments (what else do you want)?, but being that you don’t read or only see what you want, I did write you quite a few times that I will reply to comments when ever I feel Like. I did state in my last e-mail to you that when I have time I will do more then just “validate” your comments.

Stick around my friend,
I haven’t even gotten started.

Have a gutten voch.

thanks for giving me the extra bust! [end]
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David to me:

I promise you I read EVERYTHING you wrote on the site, I spent hours going thru your booklets (hebrew AND english) and I even went thru all the court orders.
I dind’t say he was a moiser, I said that you’re mixing two seperate things…
 
If, lets say, someone got into an argument with Rabbi Dechter from ULY on some issue, then Rabbi Dechter masered on him in court (or, it seems as he masered…), then must I remove my children from the school?!
That’s the point I kept on saying..
 
your points:

    1. The “Psak does not address the original directors of the camp ,as they were not part of the din Torahs.
    2. Spritzer went to court, in middle of a din Torah (Your trying to spin that too)
    3. Spritzer is not showing up to a din Torah as we speak (it’s already been two years).
    4. were ever spritzer went he lost,

 1. it says clearly in the psak what it says, who was present at the psak isn’t revalent… I already told you that… go ask a Rav if that’s a valid claim…
2. he went to court on something else, not about directing the camp… he went to court because “someone” froze his accounts…
3. he dosen’t have to go to beis din, because he never recived a hazmana to the CH beis din. To the monsey Beis Din he dosent have to go, as the din torah started here, theres no reason to go elsewhere… (he also got permession from the beis din in CH not to go..)
4. if he always looses… why are you complaining?
 
 anyways, my deal is still on [end]
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MM to David:

there is no such thing, as having a din torah and the other side not being there (to say their side) etc… Who knows perhaps there is a din torah happening right now about your house (about who owns it) and you don’t even know about it, you are not invited to that din torah, does that make scene?

The board of the camp were never at ANY din Torahs dealing with who run or even owns the camp.

any statement you make about getting permission from a Rav, must be written and signed, especially when the other side (in this case the MM side) does have a signed letter from B”D.
Moshe yankel heard from berel that zalman asked the rav, does not fly. Even if you asked the Rav, you must bring it in writing (again, especially when there is already a letter stating the opposite).

Again, I will be posting our back and fourth conversation on the site, and there (on the site) I will address (break and rip apart) every Sentence and statement that you made.

A deal is a Deal!
I am ready to make a section on my site to tell spritzer (your) side of the story, from beginning to end (who, what, when, were etc…), all the details and proofs. start getting to work. [end]
——————————————————-
David to me:

Ok, piece by piece:
there is no such thing, as having a din torah and the other side not being there (to say their side) etc… Who knows perhaps there is a din torah happening right now about your house (who owns it) and you don’t even know about it, you are not invited to that din torah, does that make scene?
Correct, halachicly, a Psak Din CAN take place without both parties beign present. If a Psak comes out on a written document, that’s enough.
Especially, since this wasn’t the first psak on this matter, so there’s no need for both parties to be present at every single discussion.
 

    Moshe yankel heard from berel that zalman asked the rav, does not fly. Even if you asked the Rav, you must bring it in writing (again, especially when there is already a letter saying the opposite).

 Who doesn’t have it in writing? it’s posted on your website! a clear psak (“in writing”) that spritzer is to be the director…

   Again, I will be posting our back and fourth conversation on the site, and there (on the site) I will address (break and rip apart) every Sentence and statement that you made.

no problem, as long as you don’t misquote me [end]
————————————————–
MM to David:

“Who doesn’t have it in writing? it’s posted on your website! a clear psak (“in writing”) that spritzer is to be the director…”

HE, SPRITZER WENT TO COURT!
(the original directors ALWAYS did/listened to what the Bais Din said, whether they liked it or not, while spritzer talk the talk (of “Koved Harabonim”) it was he who spit in there faces).

start thinking a little more before you write,
your starting to get very confused, your getting yourself in a parking spot you wont be able  get out off. If you really care for spritzer, you will stop now!

The truth is,  my intention (when starting this site) was to only post 1.Parshas MM
2. glassers verdict and 3. Spritzer mesira (that was to be the whole site).
As I was going through all the stuff (4 full boxes of stuff), it came apparent that I can and perhaps should post more. I am still going through these boxes (this is besides what I have already on my desk ready to go).

I am not under any illusions, I know there are those fighting a “holy war”  and will do what ever they feel like (because right and wrong does NOT matter to them), [I’ll say hes a mossier, they’ll say but hes not a Ganev, Ill say hes a ganev they will say but hes not a mossier]. This site is not addressed to them. If I can affect one person who really didn’t know about these things, then my work is done. until now there may have been people saying “I don’t know whats going on with the camp, it’s all politics, therefor I am sending my kids”, now the hope is that some (very few) will say “there is to much politics involved, I CAN’T send my kids”.

Those who do send their children after reading, it’s their children, it’s their problem, it’s between them and g-d almighty. There is a g-d, this world is not a free for all.

When I do proof that spritzer stoled money and the camp (which I feel I did already- I proofed Hes a mosseir and a lier etc..), you will find another spin/excuse, bottom line (from what you wrote yourself) you are doing whats good for you (and you only). [end]
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David to me:
  Moshe yankel heard from berel that zalman asked the rav, does not fly. Even if you asked the Rav, you must bring it in writing (again, especially when there is already a letter saying the opposite).

 I realize now that your referring to my comment about when I asked r. osdobo about the camp.
Do I need an answer in writing every time I ask a Rav a question? When I asked Rabbi Osdobo about the water situation in brooklyn, he said that there’s no problem… even thou Rabbi Shwei wrote a “written letter” that there is a problem. base on what you wrote, does that mean I can’t use the water without a filter, unless I get a “written document” from Rabbi Osdobo giving me a heter?
Com’on, get real…
[end]
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MM to David:
Over a 1,000 people have B’H read this site, (In the last two weeks, when I really started to spread the word, I’m getting close to 100 readers every day) besides you and one calling himself Emes, nobody seems to be asking any questions (even Emes is just spooring hate/nothing of substance, which I will not post those comments). so again, we will wait and see.

Again:
If your arguments are so great and true, Spritzer should be making them in front of B”D.
(or according to you, the original directors could go to B’D all by themselves and state their claims, with out spritzer present and get their camp back ;). [that is what you wrote? NO?]
—————————————
MM to David:

first off:
יראה העם וישפוט

second: I have a life, a wife, B”H children and a job (you know, the ones that you have to get up early to).
I did write you quite a few times, that my priority is NOT the comments and e-mails.
(I did write you the story with the Rebbe and replying to every rummer etc…) My priority is the web-site.
Nevertheless, I did say that I will reply to comments and e-mail ON MY TIME, AGAIN! AGAIN! and AGAIN!
I am not under any presser (I am not getting paid for what I’m doing, If I had the time and resources, I would also dissect the Fisher story, I would go after every so called promenade Ba’al machlokes in CH), I have all the time in the world, I’m in no rush.

I have in front of me, 4 boxes full of material (what I have put up until now is but a small piece of the pie). I have almost 6 hours of Dinny Torahs to listen to. So your at the bottom of the list.
Etc…Etc…. (everything that I already wrote to you before).

So my dear friend,
Take it easy,
Relax!

I will, just for you* (you can show it to whom ever you want) send you a bit I (at least for now) that I wont be putting up on the site
(because my goal is not bashing the Rabonoim (ill leave that for spritzer and friends to continua  doing, they are have done a great job so far, my goal is just exposing spritzer for who he is).
 
I am not adding any explanations (on what you are looking at), for I want YOU to read it and come to your own conclusion.
Enjoy!

“G-d will be my bounty hunter” (you don’t need to give me any Din V’cheshbon). [end]

Look at the bright side,
your not a ganev.
You dragged 7 families to court for about 10 years, with a viscous mesira etc….
You made them loss countless amount of time and money, meanwhile you were enjoying the camp you stold from them.

Don’t worry, your JUST A Mossier, not a ganev.
[you get my drift? I hope]
Giving תקוה to a mossier, what does that make you?
* I sent him something (not for everybody),from his responds, you will see that whatever I show these people, they will always find a way to spin it.
—————————————-
David to me:

I read and reread those documents, they are very interesting… sounds very much like “someone” was trying very hard to frame someone… trying very hard to “find” problems….
can you send me the rest of those papers?
 
All I asked was that you approve my comments, as you claimed you are ready to post both sides of the story, why can’t you post my comments? it takes a second! (when I said both sides, don’t take it that I come from spritzer’s side, I don’t know him personally, or have anything to do with him… I promise you this: all the details (besides the general picture) I know from this story, is from YOUR website!
 

   

Look at the bright side,your not a ganev.
You dragged 7 families to court for about 10 years, with a viscous mesira …You made them loss countless amount of time and money, meanwhile you were enjoying the camp you     stoled from them.
    Don’t worry, your JUST A Mossier, not a ganev.
    [you get my drift? I hope]
    Giving תקוה to a mossier, what does that make you?</blockquote>
Now your going somewhere else… what’s that gotta do with anything? are we discussing halachicly/legally or are we discussing a “conscience” case… I definitely feel for the family who were “dragged” to court (without getting into that story… maybe a different time, as I don’t know much about it…) – but what doesn’t make it halachicly ossur to go there! [end]
————————————————————-
MM to David:

 I read and reread those documents, they are very interesting… sounds very much like “someone” was trying very hard to frame someone… trying very hard to “find” problems….”

 You Stupid, ignorant etc… (I’m not just going to call you names, I’m going now to explain why).
We have 7 families that were mosseird on and taken to Federal court on charges of RECO (organized crime),
Can you imagine for a second what could have happened if the judge would have believed Spritzer (and his wittinesses).
The judge feel for the leis and deceit for 3 years. I went to one of those cases in those 3 years, the judge was screaming on the “defendants” (the original directors), that if what spritzer is saying is true, they can get locked up and loss everything (they ever owned).
Don’t give me this B.S. about people looking for problem! Who created those problems? Who had to defend themselves against a VICIOUS BLOOD LIABLE?!
From this point on I should really shut you out, If you think that what was done (in this whole case) was some type of Justice, then I hop there will come a time for you were you will receive the same Justice/Judgment! G-d Willing, you have all my blessings.

I will however continue, b/c the more you say the better it is for me to make a case.

 can you send me the rest of those papers?

 I have hundreds of pages of transcripts, that my friend would just be imposable.
What you could do (as I have written to you many times before) in contact one of the directors and they will Talk/explain and show you etc… all you want.

 
Now your going somewhere else… what’s that gotta do with anything? are we discussing halachicly/legally or are we discussing a “conscience” case… I definitely feel for the family who were “dragged” to court (without getting into that story… maybe a different time, as I don’t know much about it…) – but what doesn’t make it halachicly ossur to go there!”

 

So now we are separating the man from his actions (b/c what he says and what he does are two different things).
OK.
This that hes a Schmunk and a mossier doesn’t matter.
The Rambam write on a mossier….
המוסרים והאפיקורסין מישראל היה דין לאבדן ביד ולהורידן עד באר שחת מפני שהיו מצירים לישראל ומסירין את העם מאחרי ה

It’s all connected! This is his who he his.
Are you going to let a child molester manage your bank account, because after all he might be a pervert but not a Ganev.
what is your point?

The truth is I can’t do this back a fourth, (you and another are the only ones out of almost 15,00 who seem to be so concerned about spritzer). I have to much work in front of me, like everybody else, keep monitoring the site (for more).

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